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| Author | Topic |
| Moshe00 | Posted - 03 June 2002 0:04
I am interested in justifications of the Ashkenazi custom of not wearing a tallis until marriage, given that the Mishna Berurah (Siman 18, Seif Katan 10) says that "hu davar tamuah".... |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 03 June 2002 0:34
Even though the Mishna Brura says it is a Dvar Temuhah, it still comes from the Maharil, where the bulk of Ashkenazi Minhagim stem. The Minhag existed way before the Mishna Brura, and is quoted in ther Achronim in numerous places. Because a Minhag is Temuah, does not mean we would be mevatel it. But the Mishna Brurah says the "temiah" here is that whyshould a person "sit withotu the Mitzvah of Tzitzis" until he is married. The Eliyahu Rabbha 17 which quotes the Shiarei Kneses HaGedolah, however, who says that even those who are accustomed not to wear Tzitzis till they are married, only postpone the talis Gadol, but Talis Koton even they are accustomed to wear. This is the Minhag today, of course. In any case, because ofthe talis Koton we are not "sitting without" the Mitzvah of Tzitzis. |
| Moshe00 | Posted - 04 June 2002 3:50
I understand this, but if the minhag came from way before the Mishna Brura, I don't understand why he doesn't think the same way. There are plently of places where he says "minhag yisroel torah hee"..why not here? Also, when he says "yoshev u'vatel mi'miztvas tzisis," isn't he talking about the mitzvah of ATIPHA b'tzisis (as in Shulchan Aruch siman 8) since the Mishna Brura here says "...na'arim gadolim ein MISATPHIM b'tzisis..." a few lines above. And in SIman 8 Seif Katan 18 he says "Tallis katan shelanu she'ein misatphin bo..." |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 04 June 2002 3:53
I dont see that the Mishna Brura is telling us not to follow the Minhag - hes just saying it is Temuah. But in any case, the thing with this partcular minhag is, it seems to violate a Halachah, for no good rason. the "smichus" of Pesukim is not a logical reason to create the Minhag in the first place. because 2 pesukim are next to each other, we should make lenient halachic adjustments in our behavior? (Especialyl since the connection between the two pesukim is interpreted the opoosite way - see Rabeinu Bachya - that if you wear Tzitzis you will be zocheh to a good wife!). As opposed to other minhagim, where (a) they do not violate any halachos, and/or (b) they have a logical reason for their origin. |
| Moshe00 | Posted - 10 June 2002 5:30
Right, but if the minhag is illogical violates a halacha, why do we follow it? If it doesn't violate a halacha (ie we fulfull all the mitzvos related to tzitzis with the tallis katan, as suggested in your first post) why does the Mishna Brura say otherwise? |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 10 June 2002 5:37
Because we assume that even though to us it looks against the Halachah, the Maharil knows better, as do the collective Torah sages throughout the generations that kept the Minhag. So we assume there is a good reason, even though we do not know what it is. |
| Arieh | Posted - 10 June 2002 10:10
A number of points regarding this thread: First, in actuality, the custom of bochurim not wearing a Tallis Gadol is recorded as a Shaila TO the Maharil from an individual who says that in a certain community, Talleisim were not worn until marriage. The Maharil does not say not to wear a Tallis, just simply that the Shaila quotes this custom (Sefer Maharil, Minhaghim -- Hilchos Nisuin, Siman Yod). The B'Nai Yissaschar says that Al Pi Kabbalah, an unmarried individual should not wear a Tallis since wrapping oneself in a Tallis is equated with "Or HaMakif" which connotes Simcha and since an unmarried individual is not on a Madrega of Simcha -- See Yevamos 62b, a Tallis is not worn. (Heard from R' Yissachar Frand). The custom stuck in Ashkenazic communities not to wear a Tallis, but Sephardim and Yekkes do wear a Tallis. As the Poskim write in many places, Minhaghim should not be tampered with. |
| Moshe00 | Posted - 11 June 2002 3:05
Why do we assume the Maharil knows better than the Mishna Brura? |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 11 June 2002 3:14
Arieh, Yes, but the Maharil endorses the Minhag. The Bnei Yissaschar's reason is not sufficient to violate a Halachah. He was only sayign that to explain the Minhag ex post facto. But the Minhag itself must have a Halachicly sound reason.
Cuz the Maharil was a Rishon. Plus, it is not only the Maharil: the entire last few centuries since then the Minhag was never abandoned, which is an implied endorsement of the Gedolim throughout the generations. |
| Moshe00 | Posted - 12 June 2002 21:18
OK, and when the Mishna Brura says "hu davar tamuah," he means that he doesn't know the reason that the minhag was endorsed because it SEEMS to be violating halacha. I guess this makes sense...Thanks for the explanation, Moderator! |
| Shaul | Posted - 15 January 2006 22:02
One question to this. I am an ashkenazic jew but my father was a baal teshuvah from around the time he got married to my mother. So he has had the custom to wear a tallis every day after bar mitzvah. so what should I do since there is a minhag to follow your father's minhag but since his minhag is different than the mainstream minhag I am not sure what to do. My rebbe says just to follow my fathers minhag. His basis for this is that he was in the same predicament as me when he became bar mitzvah. I am not sure what to do. mitzva gedola lehios besimcha tamid |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 15 January 2006 22:17
You should follow your fathers minhag. |
| flour_girl | Posted - 08 February 2006 23:20
My family is of Yekkish descent, but Telshe influenced. My father wore a tallis from the age of three, although some of his brothers didn't. Not only that, but my older brother was very excited about wearing a tallis once he turned bar mitzvah, and my next brother was too embarassed to stand out in yeshiva, so he chose not to. Where is this possibility for change coming from? If someone has a minhag, how do they sometimes end up following their rebbeim, as opposed to their fathers? |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 08 February 2006 23:25
You should not follow your Yeshiva's Minhagim against those of your home (except where youre supposed to follow the Minhag Hamaom regardless). Yekkes should wear their Taleisim (sefardim too) even if they do to Ashkenaz Yshivos. |
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