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| Admonit | Posted - 08 October 2003 20:31
"And if you do get Emunah more from learnign about Korbonos than from Seforim on Emunah, you are creating an artificail, man-made need that does not exist in reality. It makes no sense that a person gets more information about Pesach by learning the Laws of Sukkah than by learning Hilchos Pesach; and it makes no sense that a person gets more informaiton about Emunah by learning Korbonos than by learning Sifrei Emunah" Not INFORMATION about emuna, emuna from seeing how awesome the Torah is. Its not exotic and seemingly "stolen" because, my school teaches it. I really dont know how to reconcile Morah and what youre saying Chazal said. I cannot believe that the whole Telzer dynasty is wrong. |
| GIRL LIKE ME | Posted - 08 October 2003 20:31
ok if my father cant teach me gemara couse its assur so why cant somebody else? if a girl learns gemara how could it effect her???? |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 08 October 2003 20:41
What does the Telzer dynasty have to do with this? Torah does straighten out a person, but nto the way you think. For men, it means learnign Torah. For girls, the Gemora asks, sicne girls do nto learn Torah "nashim b'mai zachyan - how do women get the merit of Torah?" and it answers, "by encouraging their husbands and children to learn in the Bais Medrash, and waiting for them to come home when they are there." Rav Yonason Eyebushitz says that the Gemora means that women get the full extent of the benefits of Torah by supporting their husbands and children in their learning. Note that the Gemora had no other answer as to how women merit Torah except this. So that's how it wil lstraighten out your heart. its a supernatural process. Torah is not a science. It works only the way Chazal said it does, and that means girls dont learn Torah shebal peh. Its a halachah in shulchan aruch. Look it up. Hilchos Talmud Torah. That IS relevent to you. Its something that it not disputed. The problem iwth learnign Kabalah is not that they neglect Gemora; the problem is that they are not allwed to learn Kabalah. That applies even if it "turns them on." The same thing for girls and Torah she bal peh. Girl, It mentions "father" onyl because in those days thats how people learned - there was no Bais Yaakovs. But the prohibition has nothign to do with your father exclusively. Nobody is allwoed ot teach you Torah shebal Peh. |
| Punims | Posted - 10 October 2003 14:15
Isn't it interesting that the Gemarah says that women shouldn't learn Gemarah? Then how do women get schar, says the GEMARAH.. from supporting their children, husbands..whatever. Why is THIS in the GEMARAH? |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 10 October 2003 14:17
Because its talking to the men who are the rabbanim and poskim for the women, and so they need to know. Also, even if they would not need to know, the halachah that women are prohibitied to learn Torah shebal peh is Tprah, and men have to learn Torah. |
| Admonit | Posted - 20 October 2003 1:00
thanks for taking the time to answer me, i appreciate it. I still dont understand so im gonna ask more ppl. ttyl THANK YOU!! |
| joeleeraa | Posted - 18 November 2003 9:40
In Yavne seminary in Cleveland the girls learn about the korbonos in depth (among other things) and Morah (Rebetzin Ausband) is the daughter of one of the Telzer Roshei Yeshiva. |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 18 November 2003 9:53
Yes, but she's not the Rosh Yeshiva of Telz. And shes surely not "the entire Telzer dynasty". You will have to ask her what the purpose of that is, in view of all of the above. See what she says. |
| Admonit | Posted - 18 November 2003 15:07
i wouldnt ask morah because i dont really have a sheilah. because i really cannot find anything in Torah shebiksav that doestn appyly to me. directly. |
| Admonit | Posted - 18 November 2003 15:07
HI RETRACTION i dont know who u are, joesomethng, but we dont learn about korbonos in depth at ALL. we learn pasuk adn Rashi. cuz Hashem told it to us and its a mitzva to learn and bec we learn tons of mussar from it. No depth whatsoever. there is not one girl who graduats yavne who thinks she knows the firt thing about korbonos. the Telzer dynasty is VERY Morah. And When Rav Gifter and Rav Katz were Roshei yeshiva they used to come and test the yavne girls on their stuff to make sure tehy knew it. also diff roshei yeshiva but i dont know their names. Morah would NOT be or do anything thtt wasnt from her father. no chance. |
| joeleeraa | Posted - 20 November 2003 22:38
I heard she says that if girls see the beauty of Torah than they will appreciate their husbands learning much more. I'm not sure why they have to learn korbonos though. |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 20 November 2003 22:47
Nope - there are plenty of topics relevent to girls form which they can just as clearly see the "beauty of Torah". Second, that never was a heter to teach girls torah shebal peh - the shulchan aruch says its assur despite this. Third, the way girls learn in BY is so not the way men learn that even if a girl getsstraight alephs she still hasnt a clue as to pilpula d'oraisa, or sugya aliba d'hilchasa - or learning Gemora for that matter, which is what her husband is doing. WHatever she was made to appreciate is not in the slightest what her husband is doing. On the contrary - how many girls, coming out of academics-intense BYs end up with an attitude that "girls know chumash/tanach better than boys" or "girls learn more maharals than boys" (that was actually said on this site)? Fourth - this is one of the bogus heterim used in Modern Orthodox circles to teach girls Gemora - so that they will appreciate their husbands learning in Kolel more. Of course, it doesnt work for all of the above and more reasons. Fifth, if that is the idea, they should give it up, for clearly, there is no correlation between the svholarship of the girls and desire fortalmid chacham husbands. According to this cheshbon, the more academics-intense schools and seminaries should put out much more kollel women than the less academic intense, but clearly, that is not so. Appreciation for Torah form a woman's perspective comes form the same place it always did - Yiras Shamayim and commitment to their role as Nshei Chayil. Keeping them up till 1:00 am breakign their heads on the Ramban doesnt help. |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 20 November 2003 22:50
Admonit, With that logic you wont find anythgin in Torah she bal peh that doesnt apply to you directly either. Your criterion of "apply" and "directly" is not what the Halachah means. You can find lessons in everything. But neither you nor I are being makriv korbonos nowadays. It simply doesnt apply directly. In fact, men, too, have halachos of what is priority for them, and one of the criteria is that the learnign should be applicable to them. We have a whole list of topics in that catagory and a whole list that are not. Kodshim is not. Girls should apply that rule as well, but for girls applicability results in parameters, not merely priorities. |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 20 November 2003 22:53
PS - It is NOT a mitzvah for you to learn. You are exempt from the mitzvah of Talmud Torah. You learn for a totally different reason, as described above. |
| Punims | Posted - 24 November 2003 1:39
They don't get a mitzvah when they learn??? |
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