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| MODERATOR | Posted - 19 May 2004 13:04
Even though the meanign was not the sole basis for the heter, Rav Elyashev said it was enough basis alone. Yes, he did say that his decision depended on the words of Dr. Mohan - which, by the way, was his source both for the meaning and the method of performance of the ritual - but so far nobody has contradicted what Mohan has said, and his information has been confirmed by countless other experts to the detial, without any discrepency whatsoever. At the end of the day, there is so far no reason to assume that the procedure is any type of worship, but rather a purification-preparation process. If indeed the facts are as presented today, they have likely not changed, but have always been so, and Rav Elyashev's sources were wrong then. I say this because the same sources still insist today that the procedure has not changed. The only way Rav Elyashev knew about the procedure was from those people then - and so far, even according to those who say that the procedure is done in the way you described, nobody is saying that it was not done that way 15 years ago. What can still reconcile all this conflicting informaiton is the fact that the Hindu religion does not have a centralized authority on rituals or a codified way to do these thigns. Thus, if some priest decided to use a basin or a prayer or whatever, thast does not mean "they" all do it that way; it does nto even mean that particular priest or temple does it that way all the time. From what I hear, Rabbi Dunner was not aware of this, and I cant blame him, since in other religions - ours included, as well as those that we are familiar with such as Christians and Muslims - there is indeed central authorities. So the question still is: Even if this procedure makes the hair takrovos avodah zorah, is everybody doing it this way? And are they always doing it this way? If it changed, did it change acoross the board? If this is a question, then we have a safek, and Rav Shlomo Zalman then permitted based on the sfek sfeika of: Perhaps this is or is not takrovos avodah zorah, and even if it is, is the particular shaitel on your head made of hair which is the result of this procedure or not? There is a big difference if somethgin "casts a doubt" versus something is certain. Ther is a difference between a Posek saying "We know the facts, thereore I prohibit", versus "we do nto know the facts, therrefore we prohibit" - both are correct, of course, but with very results. As far as the woman saying the god's name at the time of the haircut, again, we must know how across-the-board this practice is, since they are according to Hindu law allwoed to say whatever they want, but not required to say anything, and it is common in this religion for people to do these thigns as they please - but more importantly, Rav Elyashev already knew that the women cut their hair in order to please their god - so saying its name is not much of a surprise - the issue was, whether the particular reason the god is pleased with this hair cut would make the hair takrovos. The only differneces that would make a difference according to the old Teshuva is (a) if the hair cut is currently performed in the temple, or (b) if there is some post-haircut procedure done in to the hair. If we establish one of those facts, we then still must contend with the meaning of the ritual - whether it is purification or worship - and the prevelence of lack thereof of the process. Bear in mind please, that Rav Moshe Sterenbuch prohibited these shaitlach 40 years ago beased on an account which he heard "from reliable witnesses" (his words) that is completely inaccurate according to all the accounts that we have - including Rabbi Dunner's. SO he was misinformed even though he felt his informaiton was reliable. Then we have the likelihood that Rav Elyashev who was apparently misinformed 15 years ago about the details of the procedure (in any case, his sources back then - Dr. Mohan and co. - are definitely misinforming people now by saying things did not change) - so any way you cut it, there have been psakim issued based on misinformation. The only question is --- which psakim are they? I am waiting for Rabbi Belsky to return with some verification of the facts before I say that I know the answer. |
| dasi | Posted - 19 May 2004 14:03
test |
| yehdalj | Posted - 19 May 2004 14:03
" es chatai ani mazkir hayom " i didnt read it as u meant it im maskin and apologize for my tangent, i heard today and i saw the psak handwritten by r' elayshjiv today (wed morning est) and eh pasklins its assor yasher koach for the hisotry and background but i think the debate is settled i also hear drumors rav belsky may go visit the temples to see what happens. also agav orchay i dont check the site very often maybe yer programmer can arrange if a post was replied to that the original post author be sent an emil kol tuv |
| Sami | Posted - 19 May 2004 14:17
Can you please refer me to a place the previous P'sakim of Heiter of Rav Elyashiv and Rav S.Z. Auyerbach can be found? |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 19 May 2004 14:20
Rav Elyashev's teshuva is printed in his Kovetz Teshuvos # 77. Rav Shlomo Zalman's psak was not put in writing, but given orally to Rabbi Portnoy, his gabai. |
| L.Y. | Posted - 19 May 2004 18:56
Dear Moderator, Is it possible that you could please send a letter to Rav Elyashev setting forth all of the details and concerns that you have posted here, and beseech him to please help us understand his recent ruling? This way we can know for certain whether he is aware of all the information, and questions, that the readers of the forum are now aware of due to your postings on this forum. B"H we have an opportunity to ask and I am sure that he would respond appropriately to a respectfully written letter detailing the very serious concerns that you have so articulately expressed here. |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 19 May 2004 19:04
The letter would never reach Rav Elyashev. But I am hoping that a certain Rav who is currently in India, I hear, will pay him a visit soon. |
| L.Y. | Posted - 19 May 2004 21:08
I just heard that Indian hair is also exported for the manufacture of Cystine, a protein ingredient in shampoos, vitamin supplements and food preservatives: Guptahair.com advertises: The shorter hair is primarily used for the extraction of a protein called El-Cystine. This protein is an amino acid used in food preservatives and various other things. |
| Germo | Posted - 19 May 2004 21:08
mod - 2 questions: 1. i've noticed that some american rabonim have paskined that sheitlach are only assur if one knows that for sure its indian - how does this make any sense? 2. what are the duidlines for establishing something as daas torah to the extent that one can't claim a psak or opinion is based om missinformation? |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 19 May 2004 21:11
Those Rabbonim - and there are those who disagree both lchumrah and lkulah - are saying that since the majorioty of hair does not come from India you can rely on the majority. I dont understandyour quesiton about guidelines and Daas Torah. If someone - be it the Bais Yosef or Rabi Akiva Eger or the Ridvaz or Rav Moshe Feinstein or Rav Elyashev or whoever - is misinformed, then the psak is not applicable. What do you mean by guidelines? |
| Elik | Posted - 19 May 2004 21:24
I am told by a reliable Rabbinical source involved in Kashrut, that the issue of hair from India has Halachic ramifications concerning food production worldwide. There is a protein (whose name I do not currently recall, but that is used for dairy production) whose 2 sources are either from chicken feathers or from human hair. For Kosher certified products, the proetein is derived from human hair. The hair used comes primarily from India, the same source of the sheitel hair. Thus, if the sheitels are forbidden as "tikrovas avodah zarah" then the same is probably true for this protein that is derived form this very same source. My sources tell me that the Rabbonim involved did ask Harav Moshe Feinstein some 25 years ago about this protein & he permitted its use. I do not know if there is anything in writing. I am sure that if this information is essentially correct, then some people at the major Kashrut organizations should know something about it. |
| watchr | Posted - 19 May 2004 21:27
Having been inside the wig business for longer than I would like to reveal, I will tell you it is not unlike the Kashrut industry.We all would like to believe that the more we pay, the better it will be, but so much of the business is marketing (or shekker). First of all many many of the "European" wigs do come from Indian hair. (Trust me, it is not hard to tell the difference). Indian hair is very good quality, Indians are technically Caucasian and the hair has a very nice texture. Until the early 90's or so, the most expensive Y*ffa and Ge*rgie wigs boasted "Indian hair". Many "European" hair wigs also come from South American hair. All are treated to give that "silky" feel that is so valued. This of course contributes The least expensive hair comes from the Far East, that is China and Korea with the latter being preferable for its thicker texture and ability to take a perm (most wigs have at least a body wave). I have seen quite a few wigs in recent years that were a mixture of Korean and Indian hair, wigs that were made to sell for $500-1000. I have sold Chinese hair wigs from Ge*rgie that were suggested to retail for $750 and I have also seen cheap Chinese hair wigs for $29 downtown. I have seen $2000 "custom Euro" hair wigs that were definitely Indian hair. Often the same factory makes an identical wig for both Jewish and non Jewish labels. One is designed to sell for $200 and the other for $29. After all my years in business, I am still not convinced that synthetic sheitals look bad. They are easy to care for and impervious to weather. I have not seen too many European "customs" that I think look better than cheap synthetics. Maybe they feel silky, but who is touching your head?? Generally the Jewish manufacturers DO offer a higher quality wig than the downtown vendors, but not always. Most of the benefit is in the cap construction and not neccessarily the hair quality. A lot of the wig business is no different than Kedem Grape juice vs. Welch's. That is the only difference is in the marketing. I am seeing sheital machers advertising that they are under a certain Rabbi's certification that the sheitals they sell absolutely do not contain Indian hair. I am wondering if the Rabbis who give the hashgacha are going to Russia to supervise the purchasing of the hair for the manufacturers or if it is like any other manufactured product that is under hashgacha, that they rely upon the word of the manufacturer in order to certify the product. Anyway, I really have been wanting out of the sheital business completely for a couple of years now. I think this Indian hair thing is the last straw for me. It is really too crazy out there. |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 19 May 2004 21:49
Regarding the talk about rov and majority and htings like that, the issue not nearly that simple. While i have been flooded with posts quoting websites and magazines about the majority of hair coming form India NOT being temple hair - 4,000 tons supposedly does NOT come form the temples for every 500 tons from Temples (60% of which comes from Tirupati) - the issue is not where the majority of hair comes from but the majority of shaitel-quality hair comes from. The following is from the owner of A. R. Siddiqui, one of the largest exporters of Indian hair. This was written to the Rabbonim inquiring about the hairs last time the tumult came around, and it was one of the documents that was sent to Rav Elyashev: "We have two sources for raw human hair namely: a) Hindu women offering hair to the deity at the temples (which is prevalent amongst Dravidian Hindus since time immemorial) b) Out-combed hair (this source is hair while combing fallen out which the ladies throw and which is collected by the poorest class of people from all over the country and sold to whole-salers and processors. "The Dravidian Hindus are mostly living in the four Southern States if India, namely: Andhra Pradesh, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu and hence major portion of hair from tmeples comes fomr these four states. Even amongst the four states Andhra Pradesh provides largest share. In the Northern States also some aryan temples provide hair but very little goes for export since many Indian ladies also use extra hair pieces. "Until about 15 years back [Moderator's note: this letter was written 8/19/89] major portion of exports of hair form India to foreign countries including South Korea was out-combed because out-combed double drawn human hair was comparitively cheaper than temple hair. However, with the entry of CHinese human hair into the world markets including S. Korea, Hong KJong, and other wig-making countries in or about 1971 onwards (this was possible because the then US-preseident, Mr. Nixon lifted the US embargo on trade with Red China.) There was decline of out-combed hair colleciton in India consequently there was limited demand from foreign countries. "However, export of temple hair is going on. "Even in temple hair, there are two types namely 1) remi and 2) non-remi. Remi is hair with roots one side and ends other side. Non-remi is hair with roots and ends mixed up. Remi hair costs at least 40% more price than out-combed hair. A few importers in West Europe, one of two countires in East Europe, a few importers in USA and in Japan import remi hair from India. The quantity of remi hair availabel for export is limited due to complicated process before exports and per hour yield is very low. "However, te,ple hair is more strong than out-combed hair and the yield is also more after bleaching than out-combed hair. Out combed hair is dead hair. "South Korea imported form India remi as well as out-combed hair. I understand south korea also imports human hair from other countries in addition to India. I have recently exported remi as well as non-remi hair to Japan. The availability of out-combed hair is now very limited as it is un-economical." The size of the hair is alos key. Writes Miss Rizwana Ali, partner in Indarts, an export-import company in Bombay, who also provided Rav Leyshev with informaiton: "For your informaiton we are exporters of human hair as well as barbar cuttings. "Yes, long hiar we are getting from Hindu temples which is offered by women for religious reasons but the quantity is very small and maximum 500 kgs. can be procured per month consisting of sizes 8" to 36". The tmeples are located in South India. "In the case of cuttings there are hundreds of people who collects cuttings form barbar shops all over India and supply to exporters. 5 to 10 tons are available per month."
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| shaye | Posted - 19 May 2004 22:43
According to my source, a hair importer, the majority of hair for the cheaper shaitlech WAS out-combed hair. Out-combed hair was preferable because it was cheaper to process. The fact that it was dead hair made the difference. So, not only is the out-combed hair cheaper the processing of it is also cheaper. Unfortunately, my source (who did sell to the frum shaitel machers) retired 8 years ago. So, it's entirely possible that things have changed (although he personally doubts it.) One other note - this person has come forward and has spoken to American Dayanim. He is helping with his contacts to help them with their fact-finding. |
| MODERATOR | Posted - 19 May 2004 22:48
What about the fact that the out-combed hair isnt long? And by the way, you may not rely halachicly on informaiton provided by vendors to determine the kashrus of their products. Even though aid echad ne'eman b'isurim, merchants are an exception, since people are suspect on violating lifnei iver lo sitain michsol. Teh rule of aid echad does not apply to a seller sellign you a product. In order to rely on a merchant, the merchant has to be established specifically as a reliable individual who would not lie to you in order to make money. Just because a person is a frum Jew, you may not assume that he is telling you the truth. |
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